tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post6518719628989938774..comments2024-03-28T02:14:56.184-07:00Comments on Giulio Prisco: Online Worlds: Convergence of the Real and the VirtualGiulio Priscohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13811681020661409028noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-90297997597020900822010-03-20T09:05:24.089-07:002010-03-20T09:05:24.089-07:00@Khannea
What you describe isn't transcendin...@Khannea <br /><br />What you describe isn't transcending. It's augmenting. And I agree those sorts of things are definitely going to be available and ramp up our brainpower and reach. But it doesn't "transcend" us to new beings - it just makes us have better tools.Ron T Blechnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07160049835937278838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-67485175777612948392010-03-20T03:14:00.133-07:002010-03-20T03:14:00.133-07:00Hiro - there is a thing called 'suspension of ...Hiro - there is a thing called 'suspension of disbelief'. Likewise, for some the SoD 'horizon' is either to constrained in comparison with their abilities, or too expansive. As for 'transcending the human body’... hell yes. This may sound spectacularly implausible to some but it isn’t we don’t need to work miracles. The brain is far more plastic than you give it credit. If youKhanihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14191101857598532784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-74876056792295475122010-03-01T10:47:30.122-08:002010-03-01T10:47:30.122-08:00@Extie I think very young infants are unable to re...@Extie <i>I think very young infants are unable to recognize that the image in the mirror represents 'me'.</i><br /><br />I used to play the who is the little girl in the mirror game with my daughter. She recognized it at one, give or take a couple of months.Giulio Priscohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13811681020661409028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-33540721150260236232010-03-01T02:56:20.111-08:002010-03-01T02:56:20.111-08:00I think very young infants are unable to recognize...I think very young infants are unable to recognize that the image in the mirror represents 'me'. Also, it takes a while for children to grasp the concept that their knowledge of the world may differ from other people. Suppose you fill a tube of Smarties with marbles, and then someone who did not see you do this picks up the Smarties tube. Very young children think that person expects to Extropia DaSilvahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13835594840650345569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-22205097078872841162010-02-28T08:02:26.412-08:002010-02-28T08:02:26.412-08:00@Giulio:
That's an interesting point about ch...@Giulio:<br /><br />That's an interesting point about childhood development. I think I've witnessed myself babies and mirrors - there is the recognition of self. This same sort of recognition is not unique to humans, either. Of course, what would be the equivalence of a mirror for something with the potential for far more raw computational and perception power?Ron T Blechnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07160049835937278838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-38902857543343681532010-02-28T03:32:03.614-08:002010-02-28T03:32:03.614-08:00>The box of cereal on my kitchen counter top se...>The box of cereal on my kitchen counter top seems to be calling out for me to have breakfast. Yet, that desire is internal to satisfy my hunger. Further, I am making a conscious decision to stave off grabbing a bowl of cereal. I thus demonstrate that the cereal itself is just an external reminder of my internal desires, which still doesn't will me to act.<<br /><br />Did you know, Extropia DaSilvahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13835594840650345569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-26408138708179506612010-02-26T08:41:55.866-08:002010-02-26T08:41:55.866-08:00"At some level, when you feel an emotional re..."At some level, when you feel an emotional response to an image, the boundary between 'reality' and 'fiction' has become blurred."<br /><br />In the same way we interpret anything in life. We are bound to our senses. That means we need to understand that what's real lies beyond them.<br /><br />"my vizualization of what they person may 'actually' be likeRon T Blechnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07160049835937278838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-86528066715679755072010-02-26T03:22:24.898-08:002010-02-26T03:22:24.898-08:00>Okay, but realize this contradicts:
"The...>Okay, but realize this contradicts:<br /><br />"They feel COMPELLED to login to the related accounts, feel COMPELLED to further 'flesh' out that personae. So who is in the driving seat, really? The puppet-master? Or the puppet?"<<br /><br />You can say that bees exploit flowers as a convenient source of high-energy foodstuff.<br /><br />You can say that flowers exploit Extropia DaSilvahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13835594840650345569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-41651166696373586352010-02-26T03:02:27.223-08:002010-02-26T03:02:27.223-08:00>Our minds interpret them as representations of...>Our minds interpret them as representations of people, not people themselves. If what you were saying were the case, we'd be like cats, batting at images on a television screen.<<br /><br />No, we do not bat at the screen like cats. But we do feel empathy for cartoon characters. You could and should attribute that to the skill of human animators. But that skill entails aquiring an Extropia DaSilvahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13835594840650345569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-72226133253602945342010-02-25T23:47:11.161-08:002010-02-25T23:47:11.161-08:00@Hiro: of course debate is always good. I can unde...@Hiro: of course debate is always good. I can understand and relate to Extie's digital personhood concept but, as you say, today we don't have the technology to create a consciousness stream independent of a meatspace body.<br /><br />But this will change: someday we will be able to create thinking and feeling persons as pure software, and to copy/paste identities from biological brains Giulio Priscohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13811681020661409028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-32654302324344425472010-02-25T08:16:27.727-08:002010-02-25T08:16:27.727-08:00"we have designed technologies like photograp..."we have designed technologies like photographs, movies and online worlds. Objectively, those are just patterns of color, light, and shade, but our minds interpret them as people."<br /><br />Our minds interpret them as representations of people, not people themselves. If what you were saying were the case, we'd be like cats, batting at images on a television screen.<br /><br />&Ron T Blechnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07160049835937278838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-19573374378296149002010-02-25T06:36:43.625-08:002010-02-25T06:36:43.625-08:00Let's not be nasty to my good friend Extie. I ...Let's not be nasty to my good friend Extie. I support the rights of digital persons, and wish her the best.<br /><br />At the same time I fear that "rights of digital persons" today has the same status of "rights of airline passengers" at the time of Leonardo: there was no airline passenger to have rights, and there was not going to be one for centuries.<br /><br />In Giulio Priscohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13811681020661409028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-43015115596873458992010-02-25T03:48:08.949-08:002010-02-25T03:48:08.949-08:00>I would respond and say that the inevitability...>I would respond and say that the inevitability of *any* sentient being reinforces the value of not wiping out any of them.<<br /><br />Let me be clear: I am not 'for' the creation of an AI that would actively want to wipe out humanity. It is just that I am concerned that we will never be able to build an AGI that we can guarantee is friendly, so therefore we will never build any Extropia DaSilvahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13835594840650345569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-22928132856723139512010-02-24T09:56:00.443-08:002010-02-24T09:56:00.443-08:00@Extropia:
"Let us establish a framework tha...@Extropia:<br /><br />"Let us establish a framework that gives us the best possible chance of creating/transcending into artificial life that with a capacity for compassion, art, beauty and other forms of life', again, perfectly reasonable."<br /><br />I'd accept that. That's an easy enough common ground.<br /><br />"Humanity is going to become extinct, period. "<Ron T Blechnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07160049835937278838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-12303334606574679522010-02-24T03:16:58.085-08:002010-02-24T03:16:58.085-08:00>You can't escape your humanity by declarin...>You can't escape your humanity by declaring it. While you've anonymized your human identity, it is still there. It is impossible to declare one is a digital person until there is no puppet-master. Your digital identity speaks with no autonomy. You say as much in your next statement.<<br /><br />According to my definition, a 'digital person' is 'a character created and Extropia DaSilvahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13835594840650345569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-69356766929647379542010-02-24T03:14:03.208-08:002010-02-24T03:14:03.208-08:00>Literally billions of years from now. Why not ...>Literally billions of years from now. Why not evacuate Earth RIGHT NOW because eventually, Sol will become a red giant star? Why don't we starve ourselves and spend 100% of our time writing our autobiographies because one day we're all going to die?<br /><br />I'm sorry, Extropia, there's no logic to this.<<br /><br />No logic? I think that depends upon the gist of the Extropia DaSilvahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13835594840650345569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-66763937475977605472010-02-23T09:31:33.082-08:002010-02-23T09:31:33.082-08:00Hiro, I am a human being, and I hold compassion as...Hiro, I am a human being, and I hold compassion as one of my primary values. I <i>hope</i> our post-human digital descendants will also hold compassion as a primary value. And I think they will, in some sense, but not necessarily in a sense that we can easily relate to.Giulio Priscohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13811681020661409028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-47486401418495464362010-02-23T08:59:09.323-08:002010-02-23T08:59:09.323-08:00@Guilio:
"I choose to define it not in terms ...@Guilio:<br />"I choose to define it not in terms of our current biology, but rather in terms of our mentality and our endless potential for growth"<br /><br />I just posted my definition. Yours lacks compassion. I posit any conscious being without compassion deserves none. If the robots show compassion, so shall I. And perhaps I'll err on the side of showing compassion, in hopes ofRon T Blechnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07160049835937278838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-35810867866618614212010-02-23T08:58:57.321-08:002010-02-23T08:58:57.321-08:00@Extropia:
"the universe must eventually evo...@Extropia:<br /><br />"the universe must eventually evolve into a state that is completely incapable of supporting organic life. ... it is worth risking a possible extinction if doing so holds the key to evading an otherwise certain extinction."<br /><br />Literally billions of years from now. Why not evacuate Earth RIGHT NOW because eventually, Sol will become a red giant star? Why donRon T Blechnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07160049835937278838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-25089452847403473042010-02-23T03:37:58.309-08:002010-02-23T03:37:58.309-08:00Hiro, your comments seem valid from the perspectiv...Hiro, your comments seem valid from the perspective of a human being. If I were a human, I would prefer technological developments that benefit me more than some tech/info based lifeform<br /><br />I, however, am a digital person. Therefore, from my perspective, any technological development that <br />gives digital people a degree of autonomy is good, and any development that <br />enables Extropia DaSilvahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13835594840650345569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-13460063789875016512010-02-23T03:05:30.113-08:002010-02-23T03:05:30.113-08:00@Hiro: So ultimately, my original comments stand -...@Hiro: <i>So ultimately, my original comments stand - real independent AI represents a fundamental suicide of the human race. There is no transcending our human bodies and becoming immortal digital beings - because digital beings will be radically different than us and will regard us like ants.</i><br /><br />Well, this depends on how you define "the human race", which is largely a Giulio Priscohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13811681020661409028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-57836292551655864882010-02-23T02:43:45.546-08:002010-02-23T02:43:45.546-08:00Your use of the word 'soul' really depends...Your use of the word 'soul' really depends upon the Greek definition of the word. That is, the one most people are familar with; noncorporeal 'stuff' that humans have and mere matter does not have.<br /><br />But other religions have different definitions. In Judaism, for example, 'soul' is an emergent phemonena that arises from the interactions between the chosen people Extropia DaSilvahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13835594840650345569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-51113965230884374492010-02-23T02:30:15.768-08:002010-02-23T02:30:15.768-08:00> I think suiciding our own race to create a ra...> I think suiciding our own race to create a race that will disregard us and ultimately may not really exist.<<br /><br />You are right in saying that it is not at all certain that A) these exotic, tech-based lifeforms will ever be more than imaginary and B) if they were ever created, they would pose no threat to humans.<br /><br />However, something that IS certain (provided our Extropia DaSilvahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13835594840650345569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-57255000027365603892010-02-22T16:20:22.284-08:002010-02-22T16:20:22.284-08:00"your avatars become less like tools of commu..."your avatars become less like tools of communication and more like assistants"<br /><br />Exactly, they become our proxies, rather than our means of communications. That's a fundamental difference. There's a value to them, but more along the same lines as a voicemail recorded greeting, or a website that describes your bio. "Self" ends where you can't *feel* Ron T Blechnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07160049835937278838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8076432836709775084.post-59829887637275176912010-02-22T15:52:29.367-08:002010-02-22T15:52:29.367-08:00>"Hiro" and "Extropia" are ...>"Hiro" and "Extropia" are far, far different digital children than an uploaded brain is. We are unique brands, or unique revealed identities, to different degrees, but we are still directly controlled and experienced by the same humans behind them. This is fundamentally different from a transhuman "There's a computer program running a copy of me somewhere".&Extropia DaSilvahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13835594840650345569noreply@blogger.com